Bernie Borges [00:00:00]:
Mark Schafer, welcome to the Midlife Fulfill podcast, a maximum episode.
Mark Schaefer [00:00:06]:
Hey, Bernie. I am so glad to be here.
Bernie Borges [00:00:09]:
I’m so glad to have you here, Mark. Mark, I’m excited to have you. I’ve known you for quite a while. You are a globally recognized author And speaker, a futurist, a business consultant. You’re a prolific writer. Your work sits At the intersection of marketing technology and humanity, I love how you bring the humanity into everything that you write. You’ve got advanced degrees in marketing and organizational development. You have 7 patents, Mark.
Bernie Borges [00:00:39]:
I did not know that. So, love love learning that. You’re also faculty member, of graduate studies at, Rutgers University. You’re the best selling author of Ten books. I’ve got one of them in my bookshelf behind me. And you’ve got clients that, you know, range from startups 2 big global brands. You’ve appeared on numerous media channels. I could name them all.
Bernie Borges [00:01:02]:
But, you know, probably my favorite fact about you is that You hail from Tennessee where your very own bees make honey that wins blue ribbons at the state fair.
Mark Schaefer [00:01:12]:
That’s true.
Bernie Borges [00:01:13]:
That’s another one that I did not know. So love sharing that little fact. And, Mark, I invited you here to discuss what I’m gonna tee up as AI won’t kill your career in midlife. It may just propel it. So I know that As an author, as a speaker, you’ve been writing about this. You’ve been writing about AI. Mhmm. So Let me just kinda start the conversation with we’re about a year into ChatTpT.
Bernie Borges [00:01:44]:
About a year ago, it
Mark Schaefer [00:01:45]:
it it launched. Exactly. Mhmm.
Bernie Borges [00:01:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. What was your first reaction to Chat GPT when it came out a year ago? Terror.
Mark Schaefer [00:01:56]:
And and here’s why. So about 2 weeks before Chat GPT came out, I finished writing my my 10th book called belonging to the brand. And when I write a book, Bernie, you’ve, you know, you’ve read, you know, some of my books. You know, I put everything into these books. It’s an exhausting process. You know, I lose sleep over it. And so I had just finished The manuscript for this book, Chat GPT, comes out. Okay.
Mark Schaefer [00:02:31]:
So I said, alright. I went into Chat GPT, And I said, I want you to write an essay, on a topic that was relevant to the book about marketing and community, and I want you to write it In the voice of Mark Schaefer with academic references Mhmm. And and in 5 seconds, it did it, and it was good. And it was one of the most depressing moments of my careers. But After I got over that sort of shock, you know, I had I I had a realization that this is a profound moment in history when this incredible Artificial intelligence is available to all of us in a form that’s as easy to use as Google. And like most people, you know, my reaction is, wow. This is terrifying, but it’s also exciting, and it’s a lot of fun. And I’ve you know, since that day, I’ve become sort of obsessed with it, trying to immerse myself in it and Push the edges and see what we can do.
Mark Schaefer [00:03:42]:
And, it’s still a little terrifying, but more fun than it was, I think, the first time I tried it.
Bernie Borges [00:03:48]:
Yeah. Those are interesting words, Mark. I would I would agree that it is terrifying even though we’re a year into chat GPT. It is still a little terrifying, But it’s also fun and fascinating and in some ways exhilarating when you discover the the potential. So As you know, a lot of people are also terrified. Right? And we’re here to talk about how AI won’t Kill your career in midlife, how it may propel it. Yeah. So maybe you can speak to how you’re seeing professionals, mid stage Career professionals generally over the age of 40.
Bernie Borges [00:04:26]:
How do you see them coping with AI?
Mark Schaefer [00:04:30]:
Well, You know, there’s I I saw this study recently that was done by Boston Consulting Group, And it it did this comparison of people that were working on sort of white collar knowledge work. I’m thinking, you know, many people in your audience are probably in that category. At least that’s my guess. Mhmm. And so they they they Had this, scientific methodology, and they tested people on these tasks, and they were not using AI. They had another group. So that was the control group. They had another group that used, chat g p t with no instructions, So they just they just said, here, use this.
Mark Schaefer [00:05:16]:
So they had to figure it out, and then they had a 3rd group that Use ChatGPT with a little bit of training, and what they found immediately is that the group that Used chat GPT with no training was 20% more productive than the group that didn’t use chat GPT. And if they had a little bit of training, it was about 25% more productive. So the point is even without training, Even without any exposure before, just starting to play around with it can lead to productivity. And I would say, Bernie, not even just in your career, but maybe even in your hobbies, maybe even in your personal life, if you if you think about it this way. So I started off with this story that was a little terrifying to me about how Chatt GPT could write really well. And I take a lot of pride myself as a writer, so that was a little scary. However, what if you’re not a great writer? You can become a pretty good writer. Chatt gpt does for writing What a calculator did for us for math.
Mark Schaefer [00:06:29]:
It didn’t turn us into mathematicians, but at least we could do our taxes Even if we hated math, I have a friend, Bernie. She’s a she’s just admits that she’s a terrible writer. She started using ChatGPT, and she had tears in her eyes. And she said, I can blog. I can be a blogger. I might even be able to write a book because I have the ideas. I just have this thing in my brain where I’m not a good writer.
Bernie Borges [00:06:58]:
Mhmm.
Mark Schaefer [00:06:58]:
So that’s sort of the the hope, and the positive thing is that this can unleash a lot of potential, A lot of creativity, a lot of new productivity in every aspect of our lives.
Bernie Borges [00:07:13]:
Yeah. I I agree, and I think I thank you for sharing a story of your friend because it’s a great example where in that case, someone who No. She’s not a good writer, but now she’s using AI to help her write. I will share with something with you and my listener here. Every episode that I record, I take the, the m p 3 file, the audio file, and I upload it to a tool called Cast Magic. I’ve got a link to it in my show notes. And in that tool, it will convert the audio, And it will provide a a number of things. It’ll provide outlines.
Bernie Borges [00:07:52]:
It’ll provide a transcript. It’ll provide social media post. But it also provides a succinct summary of everything we discussed. And, surprisingly, I don’t know if I should say surprisingly. I just said it, didn’t I? But surprisingly, it’s very accurate.
Mark Schaefer [00:08:08]:
Yeah.
Bernie Borges [00:08:09]:
And and then I end up using 80 to 90% of it. And the other, you know, 10 or 20% is my edits where I make some tweaks here and there for any number of reasons, including my own Personality, kinda the way that I might wanna say something as well as just maybe another point or whatever it may be, but it sure is saving me a lot of time.
Mark Schaefer [00:08:28]:
Yeah. Yeah. So and and that’s what I’m sort of, wrestling with is is, like, where are where are the Places you can use it and and, you know, not feel guilty. And, you know, I’ve I’ve had, you know, disclosure on my Blog post, I have a little badge that says 100% human content to assure people that this, you know, this is really me on the other end of the computer screen here providing content for you, but, you know, honestly, I’d be stupid not to use some of these tools to to to increase my my productivity. And the the example that you gave summarizing information, it’s excellent. Summarizing data, It’s excellent. Let me give you another example of how I used it in my professional career. I had a customer They had a lot of survey data.
Mark Schaefer [00:09:22]:
I think she had 1500 responses to some survey question. I was supposed to assess and report back to her my ideas. In 1 hour, we’re scheduled to have a meeting. What am I gonna do? I copied it, Paste it in the chat g p t. I said summarize this into the 5 main findings. It got it exactly right. I was prepared for that meeting in 90 seconds. And when I talked about the what I took from the research, My client said, that’s exactly right.
Mark Schaefer [00:09:52]:
So, I mean, those are those are examples of how we would be stupid not to immerse ourselves and learn How to apply some of these tools for our into our lives.
Bernie Borges [00:10:03]:
Yeah. That that’s a great example. And, again, since we’re here to talk about how AI can propel your career. Yeah. Here’s another metaphor. You know, you used the calculator metaphor. What about Excel? Yeah. And how we use Excel? How powerful is Excel? Right? Would would we think about not using a tool like Excel?
Mark Schaefer [00:10:21]:
You know, I’m I’m a I’m a teacher, and in and in academic You know, this has caused a lot of controversy. Like, if they use JET GPT, they weren’t they won’t learn basic writing skills. These were the same arguments We heard when the calculator came out. If when they use the calculator, that’s cheating. They don’t have to learn long form division or whatever. I haven’t done long form math in 30 years. I’m perfectly happy. Math is now built into everything that we do, and AI is gonna be built into everything that we that we do.
Mark Schaefer [00:10:56]:
So it it really is a new mindset. It’s it’s sort of an acceptance that it’s here. What’s more interesting, and, again, it’s it’s terrifying and fun, Is not just what it can do, but how fast it’s evolving, how fast it’s changing. And one of the newest things which I I would love to to mention because it is so significant in terms of propelling careers. So now, recently, Open Eye AI introduced a new capability where you can create your own GPTs.
Bernie Borges [00:11:37]:
You read my mind, Mark. I was gonna go there.
Mark Schaefer [00:11:40]:
And and so think about how miraculous this is. I’ve never taken A a computer coding class in my life. I mean, I could probably do it, but I wouldn’t enjoy it. That’s not where I like to reside. But with custom GPTs, you can type in what you want to create. You can create computer programs to help manage your fitness, your, you know, your schedule, your diet, your you know, can create recipes for you. It can It it it will you you can use it to to take over functions in your in your business to make life easier for you, and you can You can create computer code really by imagining it. Now this is So profound for me because I always felt like it was I was maybe a little behind because I I couldn’t do computer coding.
Mark Schaefer [00:12:37]:
Doesn’t matter. This thing can create content. It can create websites. It can guide you through almost anything that needs that you need to be guided through, And so it it’s it’s almost like having an an appendage to your brain to to help you work in in a new way. It’s it’s It’s it’s very exciting.
Bernie Borges [00:12:59]:
Yep. You know, here’s another metaphor that just came to my mind as as I was listening to you, And it it it kinda follows on the Excel metaphor, and that is like a macro. Right? Like, building your own GPT
Mark Schaefer [00:13:13]:
excellent. That’s excellent. Is
Bernie Borges [00:13:14]:
It’s it’s like building a macro Yeah. In Excel.
Mark Schaefer [00:13:17]:
Yeah. Yep. That’s excellent. Yeah. But in instead of figuring out all those numbers and then having an air someplace. You just write what you want, and even if you have typos, it understands it and makes it.
Bernie Borges [00:13:30]:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Now have you created your own GPT yet?
Mark Schaefer [00:13:35]:
I’ve tried a few things. So, the first thing that I did was I created and this was, like, very, very simple, but I created a headline optimizer. So there are certain rules of thumb that that make A a headline for content, like, better than others. If you have emotional words and it’s a certain length so there are Kind of like guidelines. Well, I could create a little program that could rate your headline and suggest improvements. Another thing I’ve been working on, and I’m not sure this will be successful, but I do a lot of coaching around personal branding. And it’s a pattern, So I I walk people through a series of questions trying to discern things. So what chat g p t is very good at is patterns.
Mark Schaefer [00:14:30]:
So I I’ve been, you know, not real successful with that yet. I’m still figuring it out, and where I’m getting stuck is because there there still is a human element. What what a a key to a breakthrough for me is when there’s a change in someone’s voice, When I’m talking to them and ants asking questions and they get really excited about something, I thought, Wait a minute. We need to go there more. And ChatGPT can’t do that yet.
Bernie Borges [00:14:58]:
Right.
Mark Schaefer [00:15:00]:
But I’ve I’ve been also working on ways just like you are to Help, take time out of routine administrative functions like summarizing your podcast, doing something like that. So, Yeah. I’ve I’ve I’m just it’s it’s only been out about 10 days, but I’ve been I’ve been using it a little bit every day, just, you know, pushing the edges to see what it Right. Can do.
Bernie Borges [00:15:23]:
And and I think, you know, here’s another metaphor or analogy, and that is kinda like a gym. If you haven’t been to a gym in forever And you go. You’re you’re not gonna use everything, every piece of equipment on day 1 or week 1. Right? You kinda have to experiment a little bit here and there and just Over time, see what works for you. And, you know, a lot of what we’re talking about here is really in that same vein. You just have to experiment, trial and error, Figure things out. Let the light bulbs just happen by virtue of the experimentation that you do. But where I wanna go before we run out of time because, as you know, our conversation can can just fly by here.
Bernie Borges [00:16:06]:
What about for someone listening who feels Threatened by AI. And, I mean, they they really legitimately legitimately feel like their career, their Current job Yeah. Might be threatened by AI.
Mark Schaefer [00:16:20]:
Well, I’m gonna give you an unusual answer, maybe an unexpected answer. So when Chat GPT first came out and I had this fascinated yet terrified response, I interviewed a guy named Shelley Palmer. Shelley is a famous tech analyst in New York. He’s, you know, he’s got his pulse on everything going on with technology. And I said, well, what do you think about this? And he said, I have blogged every day for 15 years. And like me, he asked Chat GPT to write something like as he would in his voice. He said, Mark, it’s terrifying. It created a blog post just as good as something I could produce.
Mark Schaefer [00:17:03]:
He said, I’m 80% replaced. Now on the surface, that sounds scary, but here’s the more interesting point. What’s the 20%? What’s not replaced? And it’s this, it’s his personal brand. Shelley is known, he’s trusted, he’s beloved, and we’re in a world of confusion, misinformation, And deepfakes and it’s just starting. And this human connection, knowing who to go to, knowing who can who we can trust and believe is gonna be more important than ever. So Shelley doesn’t have anything to worry about. I don’t think I have anything to worry about or you have anything to worry about because you’re known and you’re trusted. And even though AI Might be nipping at the heels of our skill sets.
Mark Schaefer [00:17:57]:
I think as far as I know, and this is what I’ve been preaching, the only Really sustainable advantage we have going forward is the humanity, is our personal brand, to be known in this world as a helpful, generous person that people will still turn to, when they’re when they’re in need.
Bernie Borges [00:18:18]:
Yeah. So I couldn’t agree with you more. I do wanna put another point of emphasis on that, Mark, and that is I don’t think and and tell me if I’ve if you disagree in any way, but I don’t think the concept of being known is only intended for someone Who wants to be known in a public domain like you are, like Shelley Palmer. Like, I, wanna be with this podcast. Yeah. There are many people who don’t want that. Yeah. However, it’s still important for them to be known with within whatever circle or universe
Mark Schaefer [00:18:51]:
Yeah. That
Bernie Borges [00:18:51]:
they they operate in. Right? So are are we aligned on that?
Mark Schaefer [00:18:55]:
Yeah. In fact, I I just, 2 weeks ago, I gave a speech at co at Coca Cola At on that very topic, how do you become known in your department? Those are the people that are gonna, you know, move ahead. So it and and it is this is not about necessarily just being, you know, on the Internet. It’s certainly not about being famous, but wherever you operate, it’s about having the reputation, the authority, and the presence to get your job done. I mean, everybody has a personal brand. It’s what people think about you. So this is just being intentional about it. It’s about being maybe a little methodical and scientific about it of of, you know, positioning yourself and amplifying you at at your best wherever you are.
Bernie Borges [00:19:42]:
How do you think using A tool like ChatTpT. We’ve only been really talking about ChatTpT, but as you know, there’s other tools out there, but that’s the big one. That’s the Yeah. The big the big Kahuna. Right? How can people use Chat TpT to develop their skills? And and I I mean, beyond just Teaching asking ChatTpT to teach me something, but how can using ChatTpT Offer me skills development maybe beyond what I was thinking.
Mark Schaefer [00:20:13]:
Sure. Well, I mean, a lot of people describe it as a as a copilot. That’s kinda how I use it. So it’s always on, and I do most of my work alone. I have an office out in the woods, so I’m literally, like, by myself. And I’m
Bernie Borges [00:20:32]:
bees, though. Don’t forget your bees.
Mark Schaefer [00:20:33]:
Yeah. Well, bees, they’re not very sociable, at least with me. So I I sometimes I need to bounce ideas off of somebody. I need to test ideas. I need to brainstorm. So if I’m stuck at a problem, I can go to chat gpt and just say, hey, That, you know, I’m trying to do a, b, and c. What would you do if you were me? Or the best way to use it is give it a role. Pretend like you’re the hiring manager at this company and you’re going to be hiring me for a new accounting job.
Mark Schaefer [00:21:07]:
What questions would you be asking me? Oh, well, that’s something to think about because, you know, I’m interviewing for a job. Then you might say, okay, Chat g p t. Those are great questions. How would you answer those questions? So, I mean, literally, it’s it’s anything that you’re facing On on the job where you you kinda need a friend right away to help you think things through or maybe, you know, do a little research to play devil’s advocate, to take on a role where, you know, maybe, you know, you could say, You know, I am let’s say you’re in sales. You say, I am going to be selling you this new air conditioning unit. The air conditioning unit has these certain properties and these certain advantages. What would be 5 extremely difficult and awkward questions You could ask me when I’m trying to sell you this device. So, I mean, it can really help train you and teach you and think through Lots of different circumstances in your career.
Bernie Borges [00:22:10]:
So you just gave me another thought. So thank you for this thought. Let me share it with you and the listener. And that is What you just described is critical thinking. So my thought, no pun intended, is that ChatTPT, using a tool like ChatTPT regularly, it’s kinda like building that muscle, that critical thinking muscle. Right? If you are constantly Interrogating or or explaining, you know, what you’re asking ChatCPT to provide you, and you’re just You’re iterating on it over and over and over again. You’re doing critical thinking and that can help improve your critical thinking so that when you’re interacting with humans because That’s not gonna change anytime soon. Then those critical thinking skills can really come into play in in a very productive way.
Mark Schaefer [00:22:58]:
Yeah. Yeah. I have a I have a friend who was even, using ChatGPT to to help her communicate on dates. So it’s just like I said, it’s like a little copilot to kind of, like, give you some advice when you hit different problems in life.
Bernie Borges [00:23:18]:
Yeah. Yeah. I I remember hearing an example, and then I experimented it with it myself where you asked ChatTPT a, A question that’s very short and broad. Right? So how should I market this product? Very broad. Mhmm. Then maybe narrow in a little bit, because in the response, it’s gonna give you some response about the target audience. Yeah. Well, what about this particular part of the audience is unique, that I can address with this product and then more information? And then just keep drilling down and get more and more and more and more and more specific until you’ve got this this Thread with tons of information and insights
Mark Schaefer [00:24:03]:
Yeah.
Bernie Borges [00:24:03]:
Which can be hugely valuable, Not to mention, again, the critical thinking aspect of it as well.
Mark Schaefer [00:24:09]:
I’m gonna, I’m teaching a class this week at the University of Tennessee, and what I learned Is that this is just not a 40 and above issue that e that even many young people are not using this tool. And, when I realized how many students in the class aren’t using AI, I thought, you know what? I’ve I can’t let them leave this university without some experience in AI, so I’m teaching them AI. And we’re gonna walk them through An exercise just like that. Start off very broad with an exercise like, give me 10 ideas That, for new products that could be sold to college students at this university. So it comes up with these different products. Okay. Make it better. How much would it cost? How would we manufacture it? How would we market it? How would we price it? And you can just go down down down down down down down.
Mark Schaefer [00:25:08]:
How about give me a scenario? What would under 1 what economic conditions would this, You know, grow or not grow, ChatGPT can do all of that for you. And, of course, it still requires some discernment. You know, you can add your experience to say, you know, I’m not sure that’s right, but, it it on a on a very broad level, as a as sort of a blunt instrument, it can really create a lot of new, guide guideways and and ideas for you.
Bernie Borges [00:25:40]:
You know, I was gonna ask you, so you’ve already answered my question about what what are you seeing among college students? And I have to tell you, I’m surprised that you’re experiencing that. Many of them are still not experimenting with Yeah.
Mark Schaefer [00:25:52]:
Me too.
Bernie Borges [00:25:52]:
TBT. That that really surprises me.
Mark Schaefer [00:25:55]:
Yeah. And, yeah, my message to them is, Look. When you know, they’re and these are seniors. I mean, they’re they’re graduating. They’re gonna be graduating in a few months. And, You know, why I’m so passionate about this is I’m gonna because I’m telling them, look. Any, you know, entry level job you’re going to be in, They’re gonna ask you to figure AI AI out. How are we gonna use this in our business? How are we gonna use this in marketing? So you better start using this now.
Bernie Borges [00:26:23]:
Yeah. There’s a saying that I’m sure you’ve heard because it’s been out now for probably a year since ChatTpT came out, and that is that AI won’t replace you, But you may be replaced by someone who knows how to use AI. That saying has been
Mark Schaefer [00:26:37]:
Yeah. Actually, I actually disagree with that. I I think AI will replace some jobs whether people are using it or not. And, you know, like, you know, there’s because I was thinking this through, and I don’t wanna end on a on a negative note because, I mean, I think there is a a lesson here. Like so so think about If you had a virtual assistant that was summarizing your podcast for you and now you’re using AI to do that, There’s probably nothing she could do that could protect that job. She has been replaced by AI, not a person using AI, but The a there there if she used AI in a better, smarter way, there’s probably nothing she could do to protect her job. So, I mean, I I I just I I just wanna be really rational about this because I think that’s a good sound bite, but, I mean, it is a a serious issue, and it and I don’t think mid level people, like 40 above, I think, actually, they’re gonna be less threatened than entry level people because it’s gonna be those routine entry level tasks that are gonna be replaced, you know, most of all. That basic writing, the basic editing, the basic researching, and I have some concern about that because I remember when I was a kid, That’s how you grew by doing those basic things and growing as a professional and having a boss mentoring you and teaching you.
Mark Schaefer [00:28:06]:
What’s gonna happen when that goes away? That’s gonna be a leadership, issue that we’re gonna face, you know, as we go forward.
Bernie Borges [00:28:15]:
Yeah. I agree. And your point about how, workers generally over the age of 40 are less threatened by, AI. I think there’s At least 2, maybe more reasons for that, Mark. 1 is critical thinking as we’ve discussed here, the need for critical thinking, which we, of course, We developed that muscle over the span of years and human interaction, which is also a muscle we develop over the span of years In in the context of our career. So
Mark Schaefer [00:28:42]:
And I’ll add a third one. Okay. I think that would be insight. I mean, insight comes from connecting the dots, looking back at where we’ve been and what we’ve experienced and of saying instead of saying, oh my gosh. The the The sky is falling. You say, nah. I’ve been through this before. This is the way we’re gonna do it.
Mark Schaefer [00:29:04]:
So you connect those dots and create Insights that, you know, ChatGPT probably wouldn’t be able to do.
Bernie Borges [00:29:11]:
Exactly. We are transitioning. We meaning our demographic midlife professionals. We are transitioning from knowledge workers to wisdom workers. And we just have to continue to Have that lens, that mindset that we have wisdom to bring to to the table each and every day. And at least today, anyway, no AI is replacing that. We can’t speak for the future because nobody can predict that, But we still need wisdom and the things that we’ve been discussing here today. Mark, I love this conversation.
Bernie Borges [00:29:47]:
It’s very tempting to just keep it going Really selfishly just to enjoy it. But we’ll go ahead and wrap it here. But, of course, I do wanna ask you to share with our listener, where can our listener connect with you and just learn More about everything you’ve got going on.
Mark Schaefer [00:30:02]:
Sure. Well, it’s very difficult to remember how to spell my name. You probably face that too on occasion, but it’s easy to remember. Businesses grow. If you can remember businesses grow, you can find me. That’s my Website. And as you mentioned, you know, I have I have a blog, completely free. Podcast is free, and you can find my books there.
Mark Schaefer [00:30:25]:
And I am writing quite a bit about practical applications of of of AI, so it’s a good place to to learn a little bit about that.
Bernie Borges [00:30:34]:
Well, all that will be linked up in the show notes, and I do wanna say that I’m a fan and I have been a fan of your content for many years. You’re a terrific writer and a speaker. I’ve seen you speak many times, and I I love your content. Thank you for putting it out there. I’m on your newsletter list, and yours is one of a handful of new newsletters that I open and read from top to bottom.
Mark Schaefer [00:30:55]:
So thank
Bernie Borges [00:30:56]:
you for doing what you do, Mark.
Mark Schaefer [00:30:58]:
That’s the greatest compliment you could give me because I I put a lot of work into, so thank you.
Bernie Borges [00:31:02]:
You’re quite welcome. Thank you, Mark. I really appreciate you joining me today for a maximum episode here on the Midlife
