Bernie Borges [00:00:00]:
Mikelann Valterra. Welcome to the Midlife Fulfill Podcast Day Maximum Episode.
Mikelann Valterra [00:00:07]:
I am so happy to be here. Hello from Seattle.
Bernie Borges [00:00:11]:
Hello from Florida. Well, thank you so much for joining me, Michael Ann. Let Let me give you a little introduction first before we, get into our conversation. You are an author, a speaker, a financial therapist. We’re gonna unpack that a little bit. And a master money coach. You help people around the world rise above the money fog, and we’re gonna talk about money fog as well, and really help them transform their relationship with money, so that they can design and enjoy their ideal life. You’ve been doing this a little while, Michael Ann.
Bernie Borges [00:00:45]:
You’ve been doing this for 25 plus years. You have a masters. You have, other other credentials financial credentials. And you’re really considered a thought leader in financial psychology. I love that. You’ve written books. You speak. You’ve been interviewed.
Bernie Borges [00:01:00]:
You’ve done this before, this podcast interview before, and you’re really all about reducing money anxiety and really teaching effective methods for earning, saving, reducing debt, and just managing money. And, of course, we will talk a little bit about your book, Rise Above the Money Fog. And we have to also make sure we talk about your tango hobby, which you shared that you started in your forties. So we’ll hear a little bit about that. Oh, yeah. So what I invited you here to discuss, Michael Ann, is how to stop stressing about money and create that life that you love. So we’ll get into that, but first, I wanna know your backstory. Like, how did you get into this?
Mikelann Valterra [00:01:39]:
Who who the heck am I, and how did I get here? Yeah. I mean, I think, like, many of us, you know, once upon a time, I went to college and wasn’t certain what I wanted to do. But I ended up getting a bachelor’s in economics and thought, that’s sort of dry. I don’t know what to do. So I wandered the earth like Cain and traveled and did all sorts of things. And, eventually, it said, I know. I’m gonna go get a master’s in psychology. So I got a master’s in psychology.
Mikelann Valterra [00:02:07]:
But, you know, through it all, Bernie, I really was always fascinated with money and a lot of what I would call the alternative views of money, not investing, but more how people feel about money, people stress around money. Why is this substance, such a pain in the butt for so many of us? Why can’t we use this as the sacred tool that we would all love it to be? And so I found myself in my mid twenties with this, you know, masters in psychology and this undergrad in economics going, You know? Actually, I’ve got some issues around money. Right? I’m not making enough. I’ve got debt. And it’s almost like this imposter syndrome. We all think everyone else has it figured out. So when I was about 25, 26, I met, someone who became a very famous financial counselor, financial coach named Karen McCall. And I’ll be honest, I’d never heard of I mean, coaching was a new field in general 25 years ago, and I’d certainly never heard of a money coach.
Mikelann Valterra [00:03:12]:
And yet here was someone talking about the psychology of money, the feelings around money, the mindset. I mean, nowadays, oh my gosh. We all love to talk about, you know, financial mindset and mindset in general. No one talked about that 25 years ago. And I went up to this woman, Karen McCall, and said, I wanna do what you do and ended up training with her. So I did my postgraduate training with the Financial Recovery Institute. Again, no one at that time had heard of it. And then, you know, the rest is history, as they say.
Mikelann Valterra [00:03:45]:
I started a practice as a financial therapist and a money coach, and I became an AFC, an accredited financial counselor, and, of course, added many, many trainings along the way. But I have now been a money coach and a financial therapist for 25 years, Bernie. And it is wild as it’s not a new field now. People have heard of it, although not as not still that much. But what a road it’s been to, you know, stay the course as it were, and really, really look at people’s relationship to money and a lot of practical stuff. And I guess I would sum it up this. It used to be that people could see a financial planner if that investment, a credit counselor, if they had debt. I love both these fields.
Mikelann Valterra [00:04:35]:
They’re important. Neither field, though, is particularly adept at dealing with the emotional side of money. And quality is we need both. We need to learn how to manage our cash flow, how to deal with credit and debt, how to know what we can and can’t afford. And we need to feel better about money and deal with all the anxiety that so many of us have around money. And so that is what money coaching and financial coaching does.
Bernie Borges [00:05:09]:
Okay. And somewhere along the way, when did you become aware that a part of what you do is, as I shared in my intro of you, is to be a financial therapist. Because you you spoke about the the need to not just know how to handle money, invest money, etcetera, but also handle the emotion of it. So where did the financial therapist aspect of your vocation come into play?
Mikelann Valterra [00:05:35]:
That that’s a great question. You know, nowadays, for example, I’m a member of the Financial Therapy Association. It didn’t it didn’t exist 10 years ago. Right? So, you know, I recently
Bernie Borges [00:05:46]:
as 10 years ago. Wow.
Mikelann Valterra [00:05:47]:
Yeah. Maybe it’s 12 years. I’d have to look at when did we found it. But it it is new. It is new. And I and I’m so happy that the org that that organization exists. Now you can go get degrees in financial therapy with brand new. It did not exist when I started at all.
Mikelann Valterra [00:06:03]:
So, you know, I left grad school armed with a degree in transpersonal psychology and doing a lot of work, you know, in my thesis and, you know, all all those things that we do in grad school around money, but the field didn’t exist when I started. So, you know, I was very much one of the first people that was looking at what I what now we’ll call the psychology of money and looking at, you know, coaching programs and training programs. I mean, the number of books I read. You know, I wrote one of the very first books on women and under earning, which is an element of financial psychology. You know, our relationship to earning money. People tend to think of it only as the relationship to spending money. But I had to seek out other coaches, other trainings. I had to seek out everything that I could that was possibly related to this field because the field was birthed and born kind of along with me.
Mikelann Valterra [00:07:00]:
And there, you know, I have colleagues that have been in 25 years as well, but honestly, not that many of us. It is a very young field. I mean, as a professional field, 25 years is very young, and there’s still people that have never heard of financial coaching, let alone financial therapy. You know? So I was I was at the Financial Therapy Association National Conference, last year in in San Diego, and it’s, it’s not a huge organization. And so many people have still never heard of the field. So I’m so thrilled that you’re you’re bringing it up because, really, one of the biggest issues people have around money is anxiety. Right? This huge stress and anxiety around money. And, you know, certainly, anxiety is not, relegated just to money, of course.
Mikelann Valterra [00:07:50]:
But financial anxiety, is a big show stopper for a lot of people.
Bernie Borges [00:07:55]:
Okay. So you’ve got a new book, Rise Above the Money Fog. And so I wanna know what the heck is money fog.
Mikelann Valterra [00:08:05]:
Let’s see. What is it? So I would define money fog as the feelings of stress and anxiety, that come from being financially vague. So it’s in if you really, dig into it, fog, f o g stands for something. Of course, I wrote the book on this. Right? So fog is when we feel fear or when we feel overwhelmed or when we feel guilt over our money. FOG. So, you know, it’s a big deal. Fear, overwhelm, guilt, all lead to stress and anxiety around money.
Mikelann Valterra [00:08:41]:
On a practical level, if your listeners go, okay, wait a minute. Help me know if I’m in a money fog. So I would say, well, if you don’t know where your money is going, you’re in a fog. If you don’t have a system for looking at where your money is going and coming from, you’re in a fog. But but I would also say that if you feel guilty when you think about your spending, if you feel overwhelmed when you think about your personal finances, right, if you feel fear when you think about the financial future, those are signposts that you’re likely in a financial fog. It’s this feeling we have of everything being dim and dark, and we cannot see clearly. We can’t see down the road. You know, we’re driving.
Mikelann Valterra [00:09:28]:
It’s like we’re driving a car, our money car. And literally, Bernie, it feels like we’re driving the money car in fog. And I, you know, I went to grad school down in San Francisco. And I know all I bet the vast majority of your listeners have had the pleasure of flying in or out of SFO, San Francisco Airport. Right?
Bernie Borges [00:09:49]:
Mhmm. How many there. So yes.
Mikelann Valterra [00:09:51]:
Oh, my gosh. So you know how many times are flights delayed because of the horrendous fog in in in around the airport. And that airport is in Daly City, which is technically, you know, south of San Francisco. Right. So the fog is so thick that when you are driving in Daly City down around San Francisco Airport, there are literally 2 stoplights for every light. There’s a light to tell you that a light is coming because it’s so thick you cannot see with enough time to stop the car. Right? So that’s how it feels when people are in a money fog that we’re driving our money car and we’re driving slow and our our shoulders are are hunched up and we’re stressed, and we can barely see down the road because we’re worried we’re gonna hit something.
Bernie Borges [00:10:39]:
I I I I have a question. It just popped into my head because the the metaphor that you’re using about the real fog and the traffic lights in in San Francisco is an interesting one because in that scenario, you know you’re in the fog. So in your 25 years, have you encountered people who you recognize they’re in a fog, but maybe they don’t recognize it?
Mikelann Valterra [00:11:04]:
Yes. And I love that is so perceptive because, the fog is the I mean, oh my gosh. What you just said is so brilliant. We have effects of being in the fog without knowing what causes it. So, for example, when when I opened the the book, the Rise Above the Money Fog book, I talked about being in Santiago, which, you know, is in Southern South America. It’s in Chile. And they have a horrible fog slash smog pollution issue. But when you’re in it, you’re right.
Mikelann Valterra [00:11:37]:
You don’t always know you’re in it. I would go home at the end of the day, and there would be, like, this ring of grime around the collar of my shirt. Friends that I was traveling with, you know, we’re all young Americans traveling, their asthma was a lot worse. And none of us knew what was causing it because you’re in it. You don’t see it. Right? But when we took a hike one day up this beautiful mountain, San Cristobal, and we got to the top of this mountain, we looked down. We suddenly realized that there was this huge fog covering the city, and we didn’t know it until we rose up out of it. So when people are in the money fog, they don’t always know it.
Mikelann Valterra [00:12:22]:
The impact is if you feel guilty, if you feel stress. And so what I’m telling your listeners is if you feel these symptoms of financial stress, if you feel these symptoms of being overwhelmed, if you feel these symptoms of being anxious about money, I’m saying it is very likely because you are in a money fog. And a money fog causes these feelings of, you know, feeling guilty and overwhelmed and stressed out around money.
Bernie Borges [00:12:55]:
Okay. So since we are on the Midlife Fulfilled podcast, can we draw a correlation between money and fulfillment? And let me embellish on the question a little bit. So, certainly, when we have enough discretionary money in our life, we, we can enjoy certain things, whatever we choose to enjoy. Right? So that may give us some fulfillment, but I’m not limiting it to that. So what kind of in your experience, in your 25 years being a financial therapist, a money coach, how do you correlate money and fulfillment?
Mikelann Valterra [00:13:32]:
Oh, I love that question. It it is the a couple of thoughts, come up. First of all, money fog tends to come back and get worse whenever people go through a big transition. And I’ll come back to the the happiness thing. But when people are in midlife, they tend to hit a lot of transitions, which can bring money fog back up. It’s why it’s such a good topic for people that are in midlife. I mean, you think about everything’s fine. We’re all doing the best we can.
Mikelann Valterra [00:14:01]:
People get used to their income and their expenses. They get used to dealing with money. And then we hit midlife. And let’s just think of the common transitions. How many people divorce in midlife? How many people suddenly empty nest because their kids go off to college in midlife? You know, unfortunately, some people, lose a spouse in mid in midlife. Right? They they send their kids off to college. Suddenly, they’re done paying for college. I mean, these are all big transitions, any job change in midlife.
Mikelann Valterra [00:14:33]:
So all of these transitions exacerbate and bring up money fog because your expenses have changed. Right? Your income has changed, which brings up money fog. And suddenly, we don’t feel as happy or as fulfilled because money fog has a huge impact on our happiness. One of the, mistaken notions that people often have is if I have enough money, I’ll be happy. Actually, there’s not a lot of correlation between money and happiness. You have to have your basic needs covered. Absolutely. If your needs are not covered and you don’t feel safe and you don’t have a car that works and you don’t have a home that works for you, enough money to get those needs met will absolutely make you happier.
Mikelann Valterra [00:15:23]:
But once you have your basic needs covered, more money does not translate to more happiness. And they’ve done many, many studies on this where it’s one of the traps that people in midlife get caught in. They think if they just made more money, they would be happier. And what I would say is, actually, if you get clearer about your money and you come out of the money fog that you may not realize you’re in, that is actually what will make you even happier.
Bernie Borges [00:15:51]:
Okay. I wanna remark on that because you’ve used the word happy quite a bit, and I wanna just draw a distinction between happiness and fulfillment, since this is again the Midlife Fulfilled podcast. And and I I’ve spoken a lot about this. I’ve written a lot about this, and and I’ve done research on this. And generally, happiness is an emotion. So I can be happy in my money situation, and still lack certain fulfillment. At the same time, I can have a strong sense of fulfillment in certain areas of my money life, and I’ll give you a personal example. My 2 adult children graduated from college with no debt because of the planning that my wife and I did.
Bernie Borges [00:16:34]:
The money planning that we did. We got our kids through college with no debt. That is a tremendous fulfillment for both my wife and I. That’s different than I’m happy month to month because I can pay the bills. Correct. So I’m just drawing that distinction.
Mikelann Valterra [00:16:49]:
Mhmm.
Bernie Borges [00:16:50]:
And so
Mikelann Valterra [00:16:50]:
so Well, it’s it’s happiness and the good life is what you’re what you’re bringing up. What are the elements of a good life? And there’s a difference the word happiness is bandied about too much, so I’m glad you called me on that. There’s a difference between the good life is made up of pleasure, which is, you know, happiness, meaning, which is correlated to fulfillment. And then what we now call the the art of the interesting finding interesting things in life is the 3rd pillar, in my opinion, of a good life. Right? So absolutely, there’s if we just break it out between pleasure and fulfillment, those are 2 huge things. And money will help with pleasure and and and happiness. But as you and I know, those are not long lasting things. We we enjoy it.
Mikelann Valterra [00:17:40]:
I love a good dinner out. I love lovely chocolate. You know, those are very, kinesthetic pleasures that are really important correlate to dopamine, you know, all these wonderful things. Right? So money does absolutely give us pleasure and they it tends to not be long lasting, but it doesn’t mean I don’t want my lovely hit of high quality chocolate and, you know, the lovely wine. But what is the correlation between money and meaning? And that that’s a much, much, much bigger question. And and when we use our money for things that bring us meaning, it gives us a longer lasting feeling of fulfillment. And so like for you, what your example was when we use our money for higher education for our children, that’s lasting fulfillment. That is intensely, deeply satisfying, and it lasts longer than happiness correlated to pleasure.
Mikelann Valterra [00:18:36]:
So money is is related to both. But when people use money for things that are more connected to meaning and fulfillment, they report they’ll use the word happy. You know, Britney, you and I know people people use the word happy. Kind of for everything. Right. You know? Yeah. It’s kind of problem with English, I think. But when when we use money for things that are deeply meaningful, philanthropic giving, you know, in your pillars, it would be the legacy pillar and all the different things that go into legacy.
Mikelann Valterra [00:19:04]:
Right?
Bernie Borges [00:19:04]:
Mhmm.
Mikelann Valterra [00:19:05]:
People are intensely happy and find that much, much more meaningful. And it’s in midlife that we have more opportunities to really leverage our money towards meaningful things.
Bernie Borges [00:19:19]:
So then, generally, how can people deal with money fog? What’s what are some guidelines you can provide? And I realize, you know, it’s a short conversation in the grand scheme of things.
Mikelann Valterra [00:19:33]:
No. But it’s a good question.
Bernie Borges [00:19:35]:
But, you know, offer some guidance.
Mikelann Valterra [00:19:37]:
Yeah. No. No. I’m I’m glad you asked because it does sound like a big big question, but there’s some wonderful specific strategies. So one, for example, one of the things that that causes a lot of money fog are too many accounts that and this happens a lot more in midlife because we’ve just been around the block a few times. And also when people, you know, get divorced, they or when our kids empty nest, we just end up with so darn many accounts. And I’m talking on a practical level. I’ve got now 3 checking accounts and 5 credit card accounts and how many savings accounts.
Mikelann Valterra [00:20:13]:
It’s like we collect them because banks practically give us a set of steak knives every time we open another account. Right? There’s a lot of incentive to do that. The problem is the more accounts you have, the more that’s correlated to being in a fog and the more that’s correlated to financial stress and anxiety. So one super practical thing that listeners can do is simply have fewer accounts. Use 1 max, 2 primary credit cards. Have everything going to 1 primary checking account, not split it among 3 checking accounts. Don’t have 10 different savings accounts. It part of it is just on a practical level.
Mikelann Valterra [00:20:56]:
Nobody can monitor that many accounts. Nobody can look at where their money is coming and going when it’s spread over so darn many accounts. And so I am an advocate for financial simplicity, elegant financial simplicity. When you look at people that are happiest with money, their financial setup is elegant and simple. And it’s much more elegant and much more simple than people that say they’re stressed out about money. So how can we beautify your finances and simplify things is a great place to go.
Bernie Borges [00:21:33]:
And what’s the correlation so I love that. Simplify and elegant. What’s the correlation then with that and individuals that have maybe a complex financial picture? Maybe they have multiple assets, real estate, maybe art, maybe coin collection, stocks, bonds. You you name it. I mean, you can probably name another 20 that I can’t even think of. So how do people sort of simplify scenarios like that?
Mikelann Valterra [00:22:04]:
Well, I mean, there’s difference between net worth accounts and cash flow accounts. And so cash flow accounts are the accounts that we use for everyday spending, and that’s where I would have people start looking at using only maximum 2 major credit cards, you know, one major checking account, a couple of major savings accounts. Those are cash flow accounts that we use to live. When you’re getting into net worth and investments, I also think that they should be simplified. And and, you know, part of that, again, welcome into midlife. Right? Every time people leave a job, what we’re quote, unquote supposed to do, is roll over our 401 k into our one primary IRA. The reality is a lot of people need to catch up and do some financial housekeeping because they’ve got accounts that are spread over so many earlier previous jobs. And so same thing, you can lose track of money.
Mikelann Valterra [00:23:04]:
And I it is amazing. You know, my my husband, when we were it’s always interesting. You should interview him. What’s it like to marry a money coach? You know? But one of the good news for Robert, is that he found, like, $5,000 because I had him go clean up some stuff. And he’s like, oh my gosh. I’ve got this old stock account with Microsoft and I where is it? And he it took a while to kinda track it down. Boom. $5,000.
Mikelann Valterra [00:23:30]:
You know? So we just want to clean things up and simplify things and have as few accounts as makes sense. There’s plenty of accounts that are appropriate, Bernie. I’m not advocating get rid of every single account. Right?
Bernie Borges [00:23:44]:
Sure. Sure.
Mikelann Valterra [00:23:45]:
But how can we simplify your life? We’re very busy people. Let’s have fewer places to look so that things are more elegant.
Bernie Borges [00:23:54]:
You said something when you first responded to my question that that lit a big light bulb for me that had not occurred to me in this conversation until you said that. And that is I think you used the word cash flow. Like money, as in the money that we use to live every month, which is different than those accounts that I have out there, that I go log into to check the balances, that are not part of the day to day or month to month. Is it real money? Yes. But it’s not the checking account. It’s not the credit card. And that was a huge light bulb. And I think I don’t know if you run into that before.
Bernie Borges [00:24:31]:
Like, the difference between what we live on and manage from a cash flow standpoint versus what we’re managing in terms of investments.
Mikelann Valterra [00:24:39]:
Exactly. No. I’m glad you’re I’m glad you’re highlighting it because those other accounts I would put on the we’ll call it the net worth dashboard, you know, which is everything you own minus everything you owe. And, you know, for for most of us in midlife, there are investments and our real estate. Right? And they’re super important. They’re they’re the IRAs and 401ks that we’re working on building up for that day when we can start, you know, pulling money from them and and go into, the retirement work optional phase. But during our day to day and month to month life, we’re not using those. Right? We’re funding them.
Mikelann Valterra [00:25:17]:
We’re we’re funding them, but they’re not part of our cash flow. I’m not buying my my dinner out of my 401 k. So I always advocate that we we update our net worth either once a month or once a quarter, and that’s lovely. But that’s different than a spending plan process where I’m putting together, just as an example, you know, my December spending plan, a k a budget. Right? Those net worth numbers aren’t part of that type of cash flow picture. They’re important because they will someday generate income.
Bernie Borges [00:25:51]:
Right. Right. Okay. Michael, and I wanna do something a little different. I wanna segue to another topic. But before I do that, I I first I wanna ask you. So for my listener who wants to connect with you, kinda get into your world, learn more about you, where can we send them online?
Mikelann Valterra [00:26:07]:
Oh, thank you for that, Bernie. I would send them to seattlemoneycoach.com.seattlemoneycoach.com. I have wonderful clients, Bernie, all over the United States. I live in Seattle. But I would simply have your listeners go to Seattle Money Coach. They can download a free quiz to help them look at their level of money fog, or they can just grab a free discovery call. I’m happy to talk with them and talk through all of this with individual people. Great.
Bernie Borges [00:26:34]:
Thank you. That, of course, will be linked up in the show notes, but we’re not done yet. I wanna know I wanna hear your Tango story. How did you get into Tango? Why?
Mikelann Valterra [00:26:44]:
Tango. So when I hit midlife and empty nested, and suddenly had had more time, I started dancing. And it started out so innocently. Like, oh, I’ll just as we all do in midlife and empty nesting, we start trying out a bunch of different hobbies and and things that we can do with our time that’s changed. I took a dance class, and I am telling you, I got bit by that bug so bad. I got completely addicted and consumed in the world of tango, and it’s it’s changed my life. It’s so fun. I mean, partly just because it keeps me healthy.
Mikelann Valterra [00:27:21]:
Right? I mean, if I ever get Alzheimer’s, I’m gonna be pissed off because do you know how many dance moves? You know, they say dancers’ minds are so healthy because we’re having to both use our bodies and learn, you know, kind of how we move. But midlife, you know, we are all told that we need lots of social connections and we need to really pay attention to keeping that up. And my world exploded. The number of new friends that I’ve made in the dance world is crazy. I’m now out dancing and are taking dance classes probably 4 or 5 nights a week, and I’ll end the tango story, or is this the beginning, where, you know, 3 or 4 years ago, I went to a, your listeners will lap at a tango house party. Yes. Just dancing tango at a house party with a bunch of tango dancers. Wow.
Mikelann Valterra [00:28:11]:
I met my now husband. So I yeah. It’s it’s very old fashioned to meet your husband at a house party, let alone a tango house party as opposed to, you know, on the line.
Bernie Borges [00:28:23]:
My question. I was gonna ask you if your husband tangos with you. Apparently, he’s already
Mikelann Valterra [00:28:27]:
He’s fab he’s I I couldn’t imagine not marrying a dancer at this point.
Bernie Borges [00:28:32]:
Right?
Mikelann Valterra [00:28:33]:
Yeah. But yeah. So we tango a lot, and we perform and compete. And it’s just so fun. And just as a couple to have such a fun passion hobby together and
Bernie Borges [00:28:42]:
Yeah.
Mikelann Valterra [00:28:43]:
Keep in shape together.
Bernie Borges [00:28:44]:
That that’s awesome. And I can’t resist connecting a dot, and that is that these tango classes are not free. So you are allocating a portion of your money
Mikelann Valterra [00:28:54]:
Oh, yeah.
Bernie Borges [00:28:56]:
Into tango. And clearly, it is a huge and very enjoyable, and I will say fulfilling, from what I’m hearing you say, a very fulfilling aspect of your life.
Mikelann Valterra [00:29:07]:
Well, you know, I it it’s totally true. And, you know, I always say to all my clients, what’s your tango? Right? Let’s find your tango because everyone has a different passion, hobby, or interest, or they are wanting to discover it particularly in midlife or finally give time to something they’ve always done and want more of. Right? But things like this do cost money, particularly if you’re, like, going to Buenos Aires or buying lots of tango shoes or taking lots of dance classes. Mhmm. So, you know, part of working with money is what’s important to me and what do I wanna protect. And you better believe when I work with a spending plan, I put in what I want first and what I want are dance classes or travel related to tango. And, you know, as I teach my clients, I have the skills to make it work, to make sure that I am covering what I need now and in the future, because it’s not just about bills. That would be so boring if that’s all we thought about in money.
Mikelann Valterra [00:30:08]:
It’s about what lights your fire and making sure that you’ve got the money for that.
Bernie Borges [00:30:12]:
Fantastic. I love it. I love it. Michael Ann, I, I’m so tempted to just keep the conversation going, but, we’re gonna we’re gonna wrap it here. We’ve already, collected your contact information and your website. So I just wanna thank you so much for joining me on this episode of the Midlife Fulfill podcast. A very maximum episode on a topic that really, I think, universally impacts everybody, especially in midlife as we have discussed. So thank you so much, Michael Lynn.
Mikelann Valterra [00:30:41]:
Thank you so much. I love being here. I just love your show.
