Bernie Borges [00:00:00]:
Carl Honore, welcome to the Midlife Fulfill podcast, a maximum episode.
Carl Honore [00:00:07]:
Thank you very much. I’m thrilled to be here.
Bernie Borges [00:00:09]:
I am thrilled and honored to have you, Carl. Carl, you are a best selling author. You are known as the voice of the slow movement. You have 2 main stage TED talks that have racked up millions of views and a TED course That’s entitled, how to slow down. You’re traveling the world delivering powerful keynotes, and you’ve authored Four books, and I will mention your 5th book, but 4 books for adults. Right? In Praise of Slow, Under Pressure, The Slow Fix, And your latest book, Bolder Making the Most of Our Longer Lives, some spirited manifesto against ageism. That is on my list. I have not read it yet, Carl, full disclosure, but that is on my list.
Bernie Borges [00:00:53]:
And then you share with me that you just published a children’s book. So congratulations on that. And, Carl, thank you for joining me because I’ve asked you to join me for a conversation around the topic of hurry up and get on board with the slow movement. So where I wanna begin, Carl, is I wanna ask you, is the slow movement a mindset, a habit, A lifestyle, all the above, none of the above?
Carl Honore [00:01:18]:
I think it’s probably all of the above. I I think it’s really important to underscore upfront that slow with a capital s, this slow movement is not about doing everything slowly. I mean, I’m I am not an extremist of slowness. I love speed. Faster is often better. We all know that this whole slow creed, if you like, the Slow mindset, the slow mentality is about doing things at the right speed. So musicians have a beautiful term. They talk about the tempo The correct tempo for each piece of music, and that kinda gets it with this slow revolution is all about.
Carl Honore [00:01:50]:
It’s about choosing the right Pace, the right rhythm, the right cadence for the moment. So sometimes you’re fast, you’re in turbo mode, but other times you shift it down into tortoise mode. So, really, if you dig a little deeper, slow is Quality over quantity. It’s being present in the moment, doing one thing at a time. Ultimately, it’s about doing everything not as fast as possible, But as well as possible, which is a very simple idea, but an immensely powerful one because it can just revolutionize in the best sense of the word Everything you do, which is why now in every field of human endeavor from sex to education, to work, to Fashion, travel, anything, you will find a slow movement. People coming to the party and saying, how can I do this thing better and enjoy it more by slowing down to the right speed?
Bernie Borges [00:02:36]:
And Carl, you’ve been educating and inspiring on this topic for pretty close to 20 years now, if I’m not mistaken. Why? Why why do you think humanity needs to understand the slow movement?
Carl Honore [00:02:49]:
Well, it seems to me that for some time now, we’ve been bumping up against the limits Of what we can take speed wise both as people and the planet. Right? We’re on a a one way ticket to burnout. This was the case when I wrote my 1st book and praise was slow 20 years ago. I would say it’s even more urgently needed now, the slowing down, because look at the way the world has accelerated Over the last 2 decades, you know, when I published my 1st book, the iPhone had only you know, hadn’t even come out yet. We hadn’t really had social media. Now we’ve got AI. Things are the pressure to go faster and faster is immense, and it means that we end up racing through our lives instead of actually living them. So we we sacrifice so many things on the altar of speed.
Carl Honore [00:03:32]:
We lose productivity. We lose creativity. We lose human connection. We burn our way through the environment. You know, there’s just so many things that we throw overboard when we get stuck in roadrunner mode. And so the slow movement Has always existed, I think, in different forms using different language throughout the modern era. There’s always been a coterie of people who’ve raised a flag saying, Hang on a minute here. Is faster necessarily better in this moment? And in every stage, the answer has often been no.
Carl Honore [00:04:01]:
More so now in the early 21st century. So I feel surveying my journey through slow down That we need it now more than ever.
Bernie Borges [00:04:12]:
Well, I would agree with you on that for sure. I think that is an understatement, Carl. But what I wanna know is my next question for you is, How is the slow movement going from an adoption standpoint? You’re almost 20 years into it. You look back over the last 20 or so years, Are people receptive? Are you seeing organizations embrace this concept?
Carl Honore [00:04:33]:
Absolutely. I mean, if you Could teleport me back to 2014 or 20 years and say this is what’s happening in 2024, I would just be blown away by how how roundly the idea of slow has been embraced. I mean, you find in every single walk of life. You see it in the workplace where companies are looking for ways to help their staff slow down. Right? You know, whether it’s encouraging them to Take a lunch break or to do breathing exercises or mindfulness or switch off their phones for an hour in the afternoon. You know, it’s all these these levers People are pulling to slow things down in order to do everything better and enjoy it more. You find it in the workplace. You find it in people’s private lives.
Carl Honore [00:05:16]:
There’s a whole movement for Slow families, slow education, slow sex. You know, people looking to slow things down between the sheets, to get to get more bang for your buck if you like. So it’s it’s it’s all around us, and it’s I think one of the prejudices around slow, and this has always been there, and I think it’s still there to some extent, is that slowing down is for For old, tired, you know, people later in life. Right? You know, the young are all about speed and so on, but that’s utterly untrue. I I was just last week up Visiting a university in the North of England called Warwick where they run a program for 19 to 20 year olds, A module on slow. It’s on the slow movement.
Bernie Borges [00:05:55]:
So you’ve
Carl Honore [00:05:56]:
got these young people coming at slow multidisciplinary. So some of them are mathematicians. Some of them are studying Psychology. Others are doing history. Some are doing economics, and they all come together rallying around this idea that slowness has a Powerful role to play in the 21st century. And these are people 18, 19, 20 who are all over it. Just the other day on TikTok, I noticed that there one of the trending hashtags there is snail girl. So there’s a whole movement, young women.
Carl Honore [00:06:22]:
Again, embracing this idea That slower is often better. Right? Sure. TikTok’s fun. It’s got a lot of speed. It pops. It’s quick. There’s a lot of adrenaline rush. That’s exciting, but sometimes That’s not the right recipe.
Carl Honore [00:06:36]:
Sometimes you wanna switch off TikTok and have a 1 to 1 conversation with a friend with no screens getting in the way. You know? So it’s about shifting gears. That’s really what this slow Culture quake is about. It’s about relearning the lost art of shifting gears, and this applies at every stage of life. Young, middle aged, And everyone in on either side of those.
Bernie Borges [00:06:54]:
So Carl, speaking of shifting gears, how did you shift gears, Unless it’s not a shifting of gears for you from the slow movement to authoring Boulder and and and speaking around this topic of ageism.
Carl Honore [00:07:10]:
Well, I’ve discovered now that I’m 4, 5 books deep into my career that All all my books start with a personal existential crisis, and that was true of Inpraise was slow. It was also true of Boulder. And the the crisis that hit me with Boulder was I was playing in a hockey tournament. I’m a big hockey player. I live in London, but I’m Canadian. Right? So, you know, I’m drenched in hockey. Right? So it’s it’s running a that
Bernie Borges [00:07:35]:
in common. I didn’t I didn’t know that about you. That’s that’s awesome. I’m I’m I’m a big hockey fan.
Carl Honore [00:07:39]:
Yeah. So I I’m I’m just an uber hockey fan. I play it times a week. Anyway, I was at a big tournament, playing with my team. We were in this quarter fitness locked in a zero zero tie with a team we’d annihilated the year before. Just couldn’t get the goal we needed to get in the semifinals until out of nowhere I scored the goal. Right? And it wasn’t just any goal. It was one of those highlight reel, You know, goal of the week goals.
Carl Honore [00:08:02]:
I’ll be dining out on it for years to come. And, you know, we got into semifinals. I came off. I was floating on air. I felt like Connor McDavid. Right? I felt like a superhero, Wayne Gretzky. Until one of the organizers of the tournament sidle up to me and say, great goal. Congratulations.
Carl Honore [00:08:16]:
You know, nice when you’re in the semis. But Guess what? I’ve been looking at player profiles. And it turns out that of the 243 players here, you’re the oldest. And so, I mean, I knew I was one of the oldest. Right? I mean, I look at my gray hair. I I I’m not diluted. But suddenly to be the oldest just brought me to the core, shook me to my Foundations in the blink of an eye went from goal score to granddad. And all these questions began crowding in.
Carl Honore [00:08:42]:
I thought, well, you know, are people laughing at me behind my back? Do I Look out a place here? Should I take up a more age appropriate pastime? Like, bingo, maybe? And it was just I suddenly thought, how could it be that my age, the numbers on my birth certificate, Had had suddenly taken on this terrible power to define and limit me. And I knew then that there was I had some work to do, some existential homework in my own head to Try and reframe and reimagine aging, because I thought there has to be a better story to tell about growing older in the 21st century. And, Spoiler alert, there is.
Bernie Borges [00:09:15]:
Well, I could not agree with you more. So a little bit about me. I’m in my mid sixties. When I was in my fifties, Carl, you couldn’t get me to talk about my age. Mhmm. And now in my sixties, I have what I call age pride. I am proud of it. I I don’t shy away from it.
Bernie Borges [00:09:33]:
And so my next question is, how do we get more of that? How do we get more age pride out there so that we can fight against, as you know, this universal ageism that exists everywhere.
Carl Honore [00:09:44]:
Yeah. Well, it’s funny to hear you say that because I’m I was the same as you, but I got there maybe 10 years earlier. I was a card carrying member of the Cult of Youth. Right? I just didn’t want to think at all about my ages. Got my head down and did what I wanted to do until that moment of epiphany at the hockey tournament. And so I’ve I’ve I’m now in the same I’m on team age proud As as well right alongside you. What can we do? I think there are many things we can do to take down the ageist industrial complex. Right? To pull down the horror that is the cult of youth.
Carl Honore [00:10:15]:
And the first is to mix with other generations. Right? You know, we’re all very siloed off in our own bubbles where everybody’s more or less the same age. And When you don’t have a lot of contact with people of different ages, especially people older than you, that opens up a void into which the grim bleak stereotypes of ageism can Can flourish. Once you tear down those walls and you start mixing with people of different generations, you realize that that a lot of the things that you fear about growing older, That you feel ashamed about your own age are just nonsense. Right? But there’s so much to look forward to and feel proud of. So I think that’s a first step is Wherever you can as an individual, and we need to do this as a society collectively as well, is to just pull down the walls between the age groups And mix people up. Mix multigenerational teams in the workplace are more effective and perform better than mono generational teams. So there’s something in the workplace.
Carl Honore [00:11:08]:
But even in social circles, you know, join clubs. Go to go to cafes where everybody seems to be the same age and, you know, Go if go if you’re a little older, you know, mix in and and and then I think that will make a difference. Another thing I always suggest to people who are trying to reimagine their own aging Is to assemble your own personal pantheon of aging role models. Right? And a good place to do that is social media, you know. If you go to Instagram now, every day, millions of people in their forties, fifties, sixties, seventies, up to a 100 Centenarians are uploading photos and videos showing their version of being that age. And guess what? That version is very different From the downbeat cult of youth idea that it’s game over at 40. You know, everything is downhill from from from from 35. And seeing those people doing their own thing at their own age, you know, writing their own script, living on their own terms at 65, 75, a 105 makes it So much easier for us to imagine doing the same.
Carl Honore [00:12:11]:
So it’s that old adage, you have to see it to be it. So get out there and have a look around because there are just oodles of good role models for all of us.
Bernie Borges [00:12:21]:
Yeah. Personal anecdote for me, Carl, is, For about 2 years now, I’ve had a a mentoring relationship with, a health. He’s 27. So again, about 2 years now, and we meet every six brief give or take. It’s not a formal schedule, and we just talk. You know? Nothing formal. We just talk. And and I’m a mentor to him, so he’s my mentee.
Bernie Borges [00:12:42]:
And I know that he values the relationship and the counsel that I give him, but Carl, I value it as well. I I thoroughly enjoy the conversations that we have, and I’m willing to admit that every once in a while, I pick up something from him. I learn something from him. And and that should not surprise anyone, the least of which me. Right? So to your point, absolutely, just Mingle not mingle, but intermix with inter different generations, both in a group environment. You mentioned the workplace And the 1 on 1 thing, you know, I encourage anybody that isn’t doesn’t have a strong relationship with someone who’s 30 or 40 years younger to go out and find that. Go seek that because it’s so enriching.
Carl Honore [00:13:26]:
Yeah. And that’s why I think it’s so important to hang the word reverse In front of that other beautiful word mentoring. Yes. To to to keep to keep it a two way track rather than the older person handing down tablets of stone and all that sort of stuff. To make it Make it a a genuine and real exchange where 2 people are standing or meeting on on an even playing fulfilled, but coming from very different angles. I have that experience myself on my hockey team. Play for the London Jets. I’m the oldest player now at 55.
Carl Honore [00:13:54]:
Our latest recruit is 16. He’s actually younger than my own kids. Right?
Bernie Borges [00:13:58]:
Right.
Carl Honore [00:13:59]:
But he’s he’s got a he’s got a head on his shoulders. And and I just love sitting on the bench and just chatting with him in between games and stuff, and it’s just you know, it it did it You you can see it might you can hear my voice. Right? There’s a definite joy of mixing across the generations. It’s something human beings have always done in the pre modern era. Right? People of different ages mixed in the fields, in markets, at festivals, at religious events, at worship, at home. They just mixed. And then we got into the, Basically, the 19th century and everything siloed off. Right? We need to reverse that and bring back some of that multi generational magic.
Bernie Borges [00:14:34]:
Yeah. Carl, one of the ways that I prepare for an interview like this one is I look at what you’re posting on social media, And you posted something or made a comment recently that was really interesting and intriguing. And I wanna ask you to explain, What do you mean by the joy of missing out?
Carl Honore [00:14:54]:
That’s right. JOMO versus FOMO. I think this is one of the things that we find Hardest to do when it comes to slowing down because let’s face it, the math is simple. We only have a certain number of minutes or hours in the day. So if you’re going to slow down And focus on the things that really light you up and matter and give them your full time and attention. The flip side of that equation is you’re going to have to let some stuff go. And I think in this have it all culture, we find that terrifying. We find that absolutely horrifying.
Carl Honore [00:15:23]:
The idea that we would have to say no To do to do less. Right? But that’s at the core, I think, of slowing down is prioritizing. It’s doing a triage. It’s saying, okay. I’ve got an hour now. I’ve got 24 hours today. What are the things that really matter here? And then letting everything else go. And and, actually, I look back now on my own journey away from speedaholism to where I am now, which is someone who has an exciting life, get a lot done, have a lot of fun, but I never feel rushed.
Carl Honore [00:15:50]:
Part of that journey, the most is the most surprising aspect of it was that I never really felt the FOMO that I feared I would. I thought when When I thought to myself, okay, I’m gonna have to slow down. I’m gonna have to let things go. I was really I was terrified that I was gonna be waking up in a cold FOMO sweat in the middle of the night, you know, but I didn’t. Because what you realize is that as soon as you let a few things go, You are able to give everything to the things that really matter? That’s enough. That’s enough. Right? And the rest can just fall by the wayside. And so that FOMO.
Carl Honore [00:16:22]:
You’re turning FOMO, essentially, to JOMO. Right? The joy of missing out. And then it becomes almost a not a game, but Something you take a kind of quiet pride in, just saying a gentle and polite no and saying, you know what? I didn’t I didn’t wanna do that especially or I didn’t need to. And so I said no, and I did something else that really brought music into my heart instead, or I just rested and did nothing at all. Right?
Bernie Borges [00:16:47]:
Is that what you mean by the polite but firm brush off?
Carl Honore [00:16:51]:
Yes. Right. I think that’s a real art form that we all need to cultivate Is, is is finding ways to because let’s face it. Nobody likes to hear no. I mean, you you think of the old A villain in the doctor, you know, maybe in in the James Bond. Right? It was it was doctor no. Right? It wasn’t doctor yes. Like, no has a bad vibe to it.
Carl Honore [00:17:13]:
So and we’re social animals. Right? And and so you if you turn up with a rude, abrupt, career, no, that’s gonna land badly. It’s much easier to Couch it to sweeten it, to soften the pill, and to explain to people, you know, okay. I’m saying no to this now. But the reason I’m doing that is that I’ll be able to say a bigger yes later on when I do have time for the thing that you’re proposing we do together and so on. So I think it’s always about Finding the right balance there and bringing people along with you. And there’s so much to be gained not just in terms of the joy of missing out, But, actually, when you do fewer things and do them better, you’re more productive. Right? I mean, that’s why I think in that same post, did I not kick it off with a Quote from Warren Buffett, the legendary investor who said, the difference between successful people and very successful people is that very successful people say no To almost everything.
Carl Honore [00:18:02]:
Right? Mhmm. And that seems to have served, the sage of Omaha pretty well over the years.
Bernie Borges [00:18:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. So On your latest book, Boulder, who would you love to reach with that book? Is it leaders in in corporations? Is it leaders in government institutions, or is it just the masses of people who are over the age of 40 or 50?
Carl Honore [00:18:29]:
That’s that’s a really interesting question. I you know, it’s funny that you I’ll pick up the last strand of that question. Because when I was writing the book, I was imagining it for it would probably resonate most of the people 40 to 50. But once I finished writing it And it began to come out. I realized that really I was kind of writing it for myself, and and I wish I had written this book Boulder 20 years ago. Right. Like, when I was 30, I could’ve saved myself 10 years of pointless dread and horror at the prospect of aging. But, of course, the irony is that I I couldn’t have written at 30.
Carl Honore [00:19:04]:
I didn’t have those 20 years of experience in order to do it. So in a sense, I suppose I was party writing it for myself, and I’m writing it for other 30 somethings. Where The easiest way to answer your question, I suppose, is now that the book has been out in the world for a couple years is is who is reading it? And it it is such a wide range. I mean, I hear back from people, You know, who are doing projects on it in their in their, you know, teenagers doing stuff at school, looking at aging, trying to reframe aging As as as high school students, I hear from a lot of people in their twenties and thirties. People worried about reaching 30 because they think at 30, that’s game over. Right? I mean, You know, you and I can both, laugh and smile wryly at that, but I remember thinking that when I was 26. God, I gotta get it all done because I’ve got 4 years left. You know? Anyone over 30 is just over the hill.
Carl Honore [00:19:51]:
So I’d see that. And then then it you know, you do get a lot of people in their forties fifties, But also a lot of the speaking I do is is in companies, right, who are reckoning with this deep Seismic demographic shift that’s going on. Like, the planet is aging, and yet we’re still wandering around, recruitment departments in Companies across the world with this massive cult of youth millstone around our necks, right, or Aegis Goggles. So older workers bring a huge panoply of Skills and benefits to the workplace, and yet employers still are more inclined to offer an interview to a younger candidate. Right? So this is weird and unhealthy paradox that Harms all of us. So I’m doing a lot of work with companies and companies, I would say, even I’m gonna say even in the last 6 to 9 months, I’ve noticed a big Tectonic shift in the conversation in the corporate world around this. Realizing that there are fewer younger people to hire Mhmm. Older staff Can smash it.
Carl Honore [00:20:51]:
Right? There are so many things they can do so well in the workplace. And so the conversation is moving. The dial is is turning, but we still have a long way to go, my friend.
Bernie Borges [00:20:59]:
Good. Yeah. No. But you’re making a contribution and that’s the important thing is you’re making a contribution. So so thank you for that contribution. I wanna ask you this and this this might be, my last question here as we get close to wrapping up. As I think, you know, Carl, I speak of Midlife Fulfillment across 5 pillars. And they are health, fitness, career, relationships, and legacy.
Bernie Borges [00:21:23]:
You know, legacy is all around impact. And I’m kind of anticipating that maybe legacy is the biggest pillar for you at this point. Am I right? And if I’m wrong, tell me.
Carl Honore [00:21:36]:
That’s interesting. I think all of those pillars as you as you rattle it through them, I thought, yeah, those are Those are all very important things to me. Maybe from a work point of view, I’m possibly entering a legacy chapter because I’ve got a lot of Miles on the clock now. A lot of experience. I’ve got a platform, and and and I’m of an age when people do begin to Or or I’m I’m deep into that age when people begin to want to be of service and give back. I mean, that’s one of the things that I found really interesting in the research I did for Boulder is that there’s this phenomenon. It’s got different names. Some people call it Jiro transcendence or but whatever you call it, It’s the fact that across all cultures, all socioeconomic levels, and religions and so on, around the age of 40, people begin to Experience a shift.
Carl Honore [00:22:25]:
They become less obsessed with their own personal advancement, less fixated on climbing the greasy pole To get to the top alone and more interested in giving back, in being of service, in in in tapping into something bigger than themselves Of legacy, in other words. The l word. Right? Mhmm. And I I feel now that I’ve got what this yeah. Boulder’s my 4th book. Mean, I guess my books are my legacy, but I’m still in the world and I can I can militate alongside my book? So I suppose, yeah, I guess may maybe legacy. That’s the Yeah. Okay.
Carl Honore [00:22:58]:
I have to pick 1 at this stage. I’m gonna say maybe legacy.
Bernie Borges [00:23:01]:
Okay. Well, that was that was what I anticipated, and that was unrehearsed. Right? You didn’t know I was asking you that question and that was, so thank you for your authentic response. And, you know, I will share with you something else that I talk a lot about on the podcast. And that is that fulfillment, Carl, is immutable. Once you have fulfillment in some aspect of life, It’s immutable. A bad day, a bad week, even a bad year cannot take that fulfillment away. You’ve got 4 amazing books.
Bernie Borges [00:23:31]:
You are having an impact in many ways. That is a fulfillment for you that’s immutable. Doesn’t matter what else is going on. It doesn’t matter if you didn’t make it to the finals in the hockey tournament. That fulfilled it is immutable, and I I commend you for that. And, before we wrap up here, I’d like to just invite you to tell my listener where can they learn more about you and just, you know, connect with you in your world.
Carl Honore [00:23:57]:
Well, I urge people to connect. I’m I’m I I get back to everybody. I answer every message. It it takes time because I get a lot of them, but I’m I I love just Hearing from people and exchanging. Simple one stop shop. My full name, no punctuation, carl honoree.info. Carlinneray.info. And there you will find actually way more than you would ever wanna know about me and my work.
Carl Honore [00:24:20]:
So all the videos, talks, Books, everything is there. Right? Courses, you name it, all in one place. It’s a it’s a Linktree.
Bernie Borges [00:24:28]:
Fantastic. Well, Carl, my listener knows that that will be linked up in our show notes page, along with this episode. And, Carl, I just wanna thank you first of all for the contribution that you’re making with all of your your entire body of work. That is an ongoing body of work, so thank you for that. And thank you for joining me today on this episode of the Midlife Fulfill podcast, a maximum episode. It’s been truly an honor, and I’ve enjoyed every minute of this conversation.
Carl Honore [00:24:53]:
Thank you very much. It’s been a it’s been a treat from start to finish, and I’m going away with some food for thought, which is always a A nice way to leave a podcast. So thank you very much.
